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mushon: @mike
mushon: You wrote:Other old examples that are in many ways more interesting examples of collaboration than their modern counterparts include IRC (Twitter) and Usenet (forums).
MikeLinksvayer: true
mushon: I wonder if we can switch the "more interesting" to something else
mushon: I actually think that while Twitter is informed by IRC, it is very different
mushon: ...
MikeLinksvayer: sure
mushon: I'll edit it a bit and show you, ok?
MikeLinksvayer: it does say "in many ways", not absolutely
MikeLinksvayer: but i agree with going further in that direction
MikeLinksvayer: go ahead
mushon: I do understand the context and the point you and Adam are trying to make
mushon: so it will hopefully just focus it
MikeLinksvayer: yep
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MikeLinksvayer: i'm not emotionally attached at all. :)
mushon: ;)
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Sometimes useful to generate new meanings, ideas, images, codes, sources, open sources. Sometimes blocks immediate action, and affects.
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MikeLinksvayer: Why Science 2.0? Didn't we claim in the chapter A Brief History of Collaboration that "Web 2.0 is bullshit" as the "version number" of the web as it conveys the incorrect sense that progress is not incremental and a marketing-driven message to "upgrade"? For these same reasons Science 2.0 is appropriate. In general science hasn't made effective use the web -- translating and adopting the best practices of open collaboration on the web would consitute an "upgrade" and such an upgrade should be encouraged rhetorically. This is largely the case due to science's current setting in giant, slow to change institutions -- "big science". But, institutions, when they do change, can force broad change, quickly, as a matter of policy. Another reason the "upgrade" connotation is appropriate.
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mandiberg: yo patrick!
PatrickDavison: yo
PatrickDavison: what up?
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mandiberg: i rewrote b/c we restructured the book
mandiberg: it became about using it as an intro to the themes
PatrickDavison: yeah the rewrite is great.
mandiberg: we are trying to lock the book
mandiberg: just fact check me
mandiberg: make sure i've got my names and urls and terms right
mandiberg: kk?
mandiberg: we only have 1hr to finish the whole thing
PatrickDavison: OH! word.
PatrickDavison: yeah I'm polishing up.
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adam hyde: hwosit all going
kanarinka: hey adam - we were just talking about the "This BOok is Useless" section
adam hyde: goodo
kanarinka: and Mushon was saying that maybe it was being perceived as
kanarinka: too critical of the previous project
kanarinka: (the title, not the section)
kanarinka: but I just wanted to explain a bit
adam hyde: ok
kanarinka: that it's both a way of raising a question and being provocative at the same time
adam hyde: i think the title is ok, but the point isnt strongly made yet in the text i think
kanarinka: the main point is really about relationality underlying everything we already do
kanarinka: have you looked recently? I just updated it this AM
adam hyde: ok, lemme look again
kanarinka: it was a little disorganizing bc i wasn't sure what it meant to be a chapter vs a section etc
adam hyde: ok
kanarinka: so it's an open question but it comes from a place of deep commitment to collaboration and to the project
kanarinka: and i'm not REALLY asserting that the book is useless
kanarinka: more like a rhetorical device
adam hyde: yeah
adam hyde: but i think the point itself needs more weight
adam hyde: its a bit of an easy shot at the moment, needs more substance and nuance...at the moment, i see what it is trying to say but it doesnt capture my imagination like i think it should
kanarinka: ok - tell me more
adam hyde: the book doesnt assert that we never collaborate. and i think this is what this chapter is implying
adam hyde: tit doesnt seem to grasp the fact that we are talking about particular kinds of collaboration
adam hyde: possibly limited to the free culture digital media zone
adam hyde: and that is a limit for sure
kanarinka: well the idea of making a book about collaboration imagines that there is something such as not collaborating
adam hyde: does it?
kanarinka: yes
adam hyde: im not so sure
adam hyde: i think u can talk about strong and weak collaboration
adam hyde: and collaboration in specific sphres
adam hyde: the original text does not say that people exist that never collaborate in all contexts
adam hyde: it talks about specific contexts
kanarinka: specific spheres as in free culture digital media
kanarinka: you mean?
adam hyde: yes
adam hyde: prety much
adam hyde: i think u need to recognise that a little
adam hyde: else the bookl, in my opinion, goes everywhere at once
adam hyde: which isnt so interesting i think, at least not to me
kanarinka: i think it's important to acknowledge a wider framework and context of collaboration
kanarinka: as well as a lot of the underlying assumptions that the book makes
adam hyde: yes, but wiht reference to the context that is being discussed
kanarinka: about individuals, agency, and so on
kanarinka: i am raising questions as to whether we can even speak of individuals collaborating with each other
kanarinka: since it is something we always do in all cases at all times
kanarinka: and so what is there to say
kanarinka: however
kanarinka: that said
kanarinka: i do think there is something to be said
kanarinka: or i wouldn't be here!
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astrataylor: do you think it would be possible to make a truly collaborative film -- an open collaboration where anyone could participate on any level -- that was not "creatively poor" but really raised the artistic bar? i'd like to think so, but it would have to be a very special group i suspect....and a group that maybe agreed on aesthetics and issues of form and was therefor a bit homogeneous
AlanToner: certainly in terms of the downloading of mainstream hollywood film where unauthorised sharing simply contributes to the reproductioin of that model's hegemony
AlanToner: ah
AlanToner: well that's what i wanted to get around regarding the STF archive
Mushon: stop writing each other, start writing the book!
Mushon: ;)
AlanToner: I think that you can do something really collaborative on the 'origination' of ilm, and rckon that it is actually imperative in terms of where documentary budget costs go
AlanToner: hands off mushon! this could go somehwere towards the futures section, and we are writing1
AlanToner: !
Mushon: :x
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